Curse

Snow Bunny · Aug 19, 2009, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

The funny thing is, those with insurance that are happy with their current plan... fine, keep it. No one is forcing anyone to change anything. There will just be a new option for those without medical coverage.

The government is forcing me to change the amount of money I pay in taxes. I've stated this, repeated it, defended it, and your lordship's remarks force me to RESTATE IT.

Quote:

Stop being fear mongers regarding socialistic practices. It is the evolution of society, and you are blocking it.

It's the evolution of society is it? Good sir, as a law student, I'm going to have to state that your argument lacks a suitable premise. Because of said lack of premise, it's a bad argument. Might you please provide several facts that conclusively show that socialist practices are the evolution of society?

Quote:

The majority of "Americans" are blundering, uneducated, backwater idiots who wouldn't know what was a good thing for them if it punched them in the face. If you want to fix healthcare, etc, first you must educate the masses to not be redneck, backwards talking trailer trash that think they know something when they know next to nothing. I'm an educated American, and damn proud of it. More than I can say for a lot of other people (which includes my redneck parents)

They absolutely are, and for the first time in 8 years, now that the majority's vote has actually been represented in the commander in-chief, look who the "blundering uneducated backwater idiots" have elected to do the decision making, hmmmm?

Yipsy · Aug 19, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

They absolutely are, and for the first time in 8 years, now that the majority's vote has actually been represented in the commander in-chief, look who the "blundering uneducated backwater idiots" have elected to do the decision making, hmmmm?[/FONT]

A highly educated man with good grades and the ability to articulate his thoughts into sentences and words that make sense to someone who at the very least knows what a college is?

as opposed to the C student of the past 8 years.

Snow Bunny · Aug 19, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yipsy

A highly educated man with good grades and the ability to articulate his thoughts into sentences and words that make sense to someone who at the very least knows what a college is?

as opposed to the C student of the past 8 years.

UNDERGROUND
Under water grottos, caverns
Filled with apes
That eat figs.
Stepping on the figs
That the apes
Eat, they crunch.
The apes howl, bare
Their fangs, dance,
Tumble in the
Rushing water,
Musty, wet pelts
Glistening in the blue.

Excellent poetry Barack.

Please Yipsy, you didn't even address my point about a certain group being targeted to handle the payments for this insurance.

You're just a partisan who made an account to debate this issue, that much is evident.

Medi Lena · Aug 19, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

UNDERGROUND
Under water grottos, caverns
Filled with apes
That eat figs.
Stepping on the figs
That the apes
Eat, they crunch.
The apes howl, bare
Their fangs, dance,
Tumble in the
Rushing water,
Musty, wet pelts
Glistening in the blue.

Excellent poetry Barack.

I didn't realise that the creation of poetry was one of the jobs given to the President, and that this was so important in his/her selection. Perhaps you should enlighten all of us as to his other, incredibly important duties.

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 19, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

UNDERGROUND
Under water grottos, caverns
Filled with apes
That eat figs.
Stepping on the figs
That the apes
Eat, they crunch.
The apes howl, bare
Their fangs, dance,
Tumble in the
Rushing water,
Musty, wet pelts
Glistening in the blue.

Excellent poetry Barack.

Please Yipsy, you didn't even address my point about a certain group being targeted to handle the payments for this insurance.

You're just a partisan who made an account to debate this issue, that much is evident.

I guess you make over $250,000 per year. Maybe if those who made more didn't use all types of tax exploits and paid their fair share this wouldn't be a problem.

Snow Bunny · Aug 19, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I guess you make over $250,000 per year. Maybe if those who made more didn't use all types of tax exploits and paid their fair share this wouldn't be a problem.

Oh good sir, fair share eh?

The top 5% pay >50% of all income taxes.

The bottom 50% pay 13%.

I'd say that's more than the fair share.

Edit - the poetry example was just to show that he's not this godly brilliant writer, and the Crowley-Gates incident showed his political inexperience.

Yipsy · Aug 19, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

UNDERGROUND
Under water grottos, caverns
Filled with apes
That eat figs.
Stepping on the figs
That the apes
Eat, they crunch.
The apes howl, bare
Their fangs, dance,
Tumble in the
Rushing water,
Musty, wet pelts
Glistening in the blue.

Excellent poetry Barack.

Please Yipsy, you didn't even address my point about a certain group being targeted to handle the payments for this insurance.

You're just a partisan who made an account to debate this issue, that much is evident.

Partisan? Yes. I unlike others do not try and hide behind a wishy washy veil and go on and on about "both sides" and kow-tow to bipartisanship. I make no pretense of being non-Partisan. In fact I am proud to say that I do in fact have the courage and fortitude to take a position on something.

And actually I created an account here because I bought the game Guild Wars I just found this topic interesting.

Yipsy · Aug 19, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Oh good sir, fair share eh?

The top 5% pay >50% of all income taxes.

The bottom 50% pay 13%.

I'd say that's more than the fair share.

Edit - the poetry example was just to show that he's not this godly brilliant writer, and the Crowley-Gates incident showed his political inexperience.

They reap the most benefit from the country and the current system.

Also that is how much they pay on paper. In reality the wealthy have what are known as lawyers and accountants and tax shelters to avoid paying anything.

Your average American in fact pays more in total dollar amount in actual taxes then some, if not a majority of major corporations thanks in part to loopholes in the tax code and clever accounting tricks. Not to mention tax shelters.

Lord Sojar · Aug 20, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Oh good sir, fair share eh?

The top 5% pay >50% of all income taxes.

The bottom 50% pay 13%.

I'd say that's more than the fair share.

Edit - the poetry example was just to show that he's not this godly brilliant writer, and the Crowley-Gates incident showed his political inexperience.

Pardon me, but as one of the people who the tax increase will actually effect, I can say that I honestly don't mind. The small amount extra that is coming out isn't significant enough to matter, and the fact that some of my other expenses will drop will justify the small increase in taxes.

Most people that make over 250k/year don't actually mind that much. Don't speak for me, thanks.

Oh yes, and in reference to the last part of your post... pretty sure no one on the planet has experience being President of the United States unless they are a 2nd term President or a past President. So, that argument is the biggest pile of bullshit in history, which says a lot considering there are people that actually believe Obama is from a foreign country (and even worse, people that believe Hawaii isn't part of the US....!!!!)

R.Shayne · Aug 20, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

My tell: Went to the doctor because I was having chest pain. The doctor did one test, negative, did another test negative, wanted to do another test, I told him he was fired and went to find another doctor the next day.

The new Doctor reviewed the previous test saw something my original doctor had missed in the first test, sent me a surgeon at 9:00 AM, scheduled for surgery that day, out of the hospital that evening (nurses were glade to see me go) and one week later back at work. The chest pain is gone.

With socialized medical care what would have happen?

Diddy bow · Aug 20, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

My tell: Went to the doctor because I was having chest pain. The doctor did one test, negative, did another test negative, wanted to do another test, I told him he was fired and went to find another doctor the next day.

The new Doctor reviewed the previous test saw something my original doctor had missed in the first test, sent me a surgeon at 9:00 AM, scheduled for surgery that day, out of the hospital that evening (nurses were glade to see me go) and one week later back at work. The chest pain is gone.

With socialized medical care what would have happen?

Well in the U.K...

You tell the doctor you have a sore chest, he refers you to a clinic, 2 moths later you see him, he says you need another test, which comes after 3 weeks. More of this and you get your op 6 months later. But you found out you found out it was gone way before then anyway, so its all good.

The U.K is the best place in the world to be lazy. You talk of going years though law school and think "why should I have to pay for them. Well when you home feed and care for people for free there is little incentive for them to go out and work their ass off for you either. Does this mean that a child born unable to eat on his own should be cast out just because his parents are immigrants working in a chippy with no money to call their own? I think not...

3dfan · Aug 26, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

In fact medicine in USA is not so bad as many Americans think - in some countries have to wait for a week with their disease to get to the specialist they need

in constant search of avatar )

Winterclaw · Aug 26, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Pardon me, but as one of the people who the tax increase will actually effect, I can say that I honestly don't mind. The small amount extra that is coming out isn't significant enough to matter, and the fact that some of my other expenses will drop will justify the small increase in taxes.

How about this. Instead of imposing extra taxes on everyone, including people who don't want them, why not everyone who supports socialized health care voluntarily overpay their taxes? There's supposedly a checkbox for you to do that. That way those who support paying extra money for everyone's health can and those that don't won't have to.

Even better yet, if you overpay most likely your money will go into a general fund and end up paying for a study that says farts smell. So why not give that money to a special not-for-profit group, like a charity, that focuses solely on giving health care to the underprivileged? That way you know exactly where your money is going, people are being helped, and if the people you give the money to screw around, you can always give it to someone who is doing a better job.

I'm glad that there are people who are willing to give their own money for the betterment of society but I don't think it should be done through the federal government and I don't think it should be forced on to everyone.

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 26, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

How about this. Instead of imposing extra taxes on everyone, including people who don't want them, why not everyone who supports socialized health care voluntarily overpay their taxes? There's supposedly a checkbox for you to do that. That way those who support paying extra money for everyone's health can and those that don't won't have to.

Even better yet, if you overpay most likely your money will go into a general fund and end up paying for a study that says farts smell. So why not give that money to a special not-for-profit group, like a charity, that focuses solely on giving health care to the underprivileged? That way you know exactly where your money is going, people are being helped, and if the people you give the money to screw around, you can always give it to someone who is doing a better job.

I'm glad that there are people who are willing to give their own money for the betterment of society but I don't think it should be done through the federal government and I don't think it should be forced on to everyone.

Here is an even better idea. Why not have the corporations and well to do pay what they actually owe instead of hiding behind tax loopholes.

Yipsy · Aug 26, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3dfan

In fact medicine in USA is not so bad as many Americans think - in some countries have to wait for a week with their disease to get to the specialist they need

That happens here in America.

We already have rationing, waiting times, faceless bureaucrats denying care, bureaucratic offices, ect...

All of that currently exists in our current health care privatized system.

Not only do we have that we have it worse then any other country.

Silvertalen · Aug 26, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

^ this is a pretty good summary of why we don't need more government-run programs in this country, especially one as large and far-reaching as socia *ahem* nationalized health care.

ESPECIALLY when less than 15% of the country would benefit from it.

This is what I don't understand. Is why, if a program would help people in the US, regardless of how much or how little the amount of people it would help, are people opposed to it. Your saying, that since you have healthcare (I assume), that the people that cannot afford it on their own are not entitled to it, just because they are a minority. I just don't understand this logic.

Shursh · Aug 26, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertalen

This is what I don't understand. Is why, if a program would help people in the US, regardless of how much or how little the amount of people it would help, are people opposed to it. Your saying, that since you have healthcare (I assume), that the people that cannot afford it on their own are not entitled to it, just because they are a minority. I just don't understand this logic.

Let me answer your question with another question:

Why should I have to pay more money so that dude with no health insurance gets everything covered? I've worked hard to get where I am, and maybe I don't feel like contributing more and getting less.

I'm not saying they aren't entitled to healthcare - I'm saying they aren't entitled to my hard-earned money. It's unfair to me, and it's unfair to the majority of Americans whose taxes will see a big increase - and last time I checked, majority rules in a democratic system.

Earth · Aug 26, 2009, 09:59 PM // 21:59

How much more money do you have to pay if this goes through?

A11Eur0 · Aug 26, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

How much more money do you have to pay if this goes through?

It remains to be seen, but Obama doubled in 6 months what Bush spent in his 8 years, and quadrupled the national deficit in as much time. Countries with similar social welfare programs pay double, if not triple what the average US Citizen pays in taxes annually. This includes sales taxes on various products.

Obama is as educated as Bush is. He's just less willing to connect more with the people than Bush is. He still needs a teleprompter to formulate his most profound thoughts.

I don't make over $250k a year and I think Obama's tax stances are ridiculous. The reason is that if you tax business owners more, they pass that down to their employees in the form of pay cuts and layoffs. That affects those NOT directly targeted by these tax increases. Let's think a little further than the first level, shall we?

Those people using these "tax exploits" such as lawyers and accountants...ok. Are these lawyers and accountants free? No. The cost of lawyers and accountants requires an income well over $250k a year in order to save as much in taxes as they're spending on tax shelters. Why target a specific income? Is it because it's much higher than the average income of Obama's target constituency, thus allowing him to collect votes and win an election? That blanket number puts quite a few small business owners and a very large amount of middle-class people living and working in the cities into a hard place. I know people making $250k living in the city and have the same quality of life as someone working for $50k a year living in Montana. Obama's policies don't take into account cost of living determined by residency.

Now, on to socialized health care. "If you like your current insurance policy, nobody's forcing you to switch over." But they ARE. They're forcing us to pay more both in taxes and in insurance premium increases due to increased government restriction on their business practices. If this goes through, the only AFFORDABLE health care in the US will be these government programs which will provide considerably less care than even today's HMOs, simply because there won't be enough money to cover the drastic increase in health care requests. There won't be enough doctors and physicians to handle the increased load. The overall quality of care will decrease. Illegal Immigrants will continue to leach off the system, increasing hospital costs without giving those hospitals a way to recoup those costs...hospitals will go out of business, doctors will lose jobs, and the problem will only continue and increase.

Please...think beyond the surface...try to understand the chain reaction effects of government sticking their fingers into something they don't belong in. The failures of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid prove that the Government can't handle this job.

If you want to eliminate waiting times, bureaucratic denial of services, and other issues, solve the problem. Don't expand it to cover more people. The problem here is illegal immigrants leaching off the system. The problem is people suing a doctor for millions of dollars for a mistake. The problem is over-working these doctors by flooding their offices, thus forcing them to make these mistakes. Those are the problems. The problem is not the number of people with access to health care, or the cost of health care.

Snow Bunny · Aug 26, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Here is an even better idea. Why not have the corporations and well to do pay what they actually owe instead of hiding behind tax loopholes.

My parents, friends, and myself don't use any goddamn tax loops. My parents pay 50 percent of every dollar they make. I've seen their records, I've seen their tax statements, I know how much they make and how much they pay. Do not say, "Well you don't pay what you owe", because we do.

I'll make you a deal, how about you pay 50%, alright? How about, for every dollar you make, you seal up 50 cents in an envelope and mail it to the government, because that's what we do.

We don't deserve higher taxes, just like you don't deserve more money from people that already pay more than 5 times as much as the rest combined.

So stop using that bullshit argument and explain convincingly beyond some "well think of other people" argument to me why I owe people money.

And while I RARELY agree with A11Euro, he's right on here. Illegal immigration is murdering our social services here, especially in California.

Oh, and Yipsy, you know why we pay more? Because you can sue doctors so easily. Perhaps the American public should be a bit more grateful to medical professionals and understand that for the most part, they try their best.

If you seriously believe that the class that pays by far the most money should pay more because they can, you need to re-evaluate your moral system.